impossible moments -- difficulty options

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impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by ozubkoj on Thu 6 Mar - 3:33

My one major complaint of this game is that it's far too easy to get stuck in impossible scenarios (like not being able to go forward cause world's are too far apart). I'm all for a challenging game but it feels like I have yet to play a game where I actually had a fair chance to make any real progress. I understand if the game if supposed to be difficult but the option to turn down the difficulty would be nice. I've played it a dozen times and I'm now done with it. Every time I play I barely hold on and can never seem to make it to any of the significant planets highlighted on the map. Also why is scan a prominent option when you orbit planets considering it is VERY rare to find a geo scanner?

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by R22 on Thu 6 Mar - 11:27

Same here, i start to be kinda bored, as after 10H+ of play, i'm unable to work my way to any of the 3 endings. (And if i do, i feel that i will learn that i don't have the required tech)

If i go fast, at a moment i can't reach the end because there is no way to jump ahead, if i go slow i'm crushed by the archictect, after 30 systems visit.

Nice game, but the gameplay is a little broken in my opinion.
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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by adam.scura on Thu 6 Mar - 13:02

I have to agree.  This is a deal breaker.  Mad  When you invest hours of time and emotion into a game, and then it takes you out with a random cheap-shot, you feel betrayed.

If I decide to explore a garden planet and then run out of fuel - I know it was my fault.  I tell myself "OK, next time I'll manage my fuel supplies better."  But if the game tells me that an alien scanner deleted my Space Folder technology, and then two hours later my Space Folder breaks... what is my incentive to try again?

This game can be great, but it is doomed to be stranded in space forever unless MI-CLOS removes the random events that lead to unwinnable scenarios.  This means more than just removing the "Forgot Technology" events.  It means graphing out all the events leading to unwinnable scenarios and making sure each one is clearly connected to a player's mistake or poor performance.  A player can fail for making a mistake, but they should never fail just for being "unlucky".

EDIT:
I'm holding off on my google play review to give MI-CLOS a chance to respond.

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by R22 on Thu 6 Mar - 13:56

I think the game could be more enjoyable with some change, the random event are well writen, they are enjoyable, it's the cost/profit who is not balanced well.

I'm trying hard to optimize my run for no result, that's what is bad, if i put a lot's of time in thinkng my run, i should be rewarded and not wiped like 90% of the time the judge.

In my opinion :

1 first reduce the damage taken from gas planet, with one -40 you can be put in a spiral where you can't go out, as you need iron to get fuel, then fuel then take a lot of dmg  etc...

2 change the judge event, in one turn they own the galaxy it's not logical and after this moment you are fu**ed badly, you nearly can't live 5-10 more jumps, without a lot of technology, shield, ultraprobe

It would be better if the event was like a race, they colonize slowly the galaxy or chase you with their ship so you need to run away from them toward your objective

Maybe we should been able to avoid them with the ansible, or when we are in one of their ship, or gain time.

3 change the map layout, too much dead end, too much gap, you absolutly need an upgraded folder at the moment.

4 mining need some improvement it's very boring at the moment, mining at the pace of one by one, because it's the best way for the fuel is time consuming for nothing, maybe a mini-game based on logic could be better.

Or maybe i dont understand the game, maybe i must just need to head toward a beacon at full speed and cross my finger to find a good ship, then repeat again and again until i win one time.
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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by Kvothe on Fri 7 Mar - 0:11

I understand the need for the random events, otherwise it would be too easy to find a path that works and then never deviate from it. And it definitely adds some spice to the experience, never knowing what's around the proverbial "next corner."

That being said I find the severity of some of these random events rather... harsh - especially the gas planets. My worst occurrence of hull damage is 55 (in a game earlier today) but I'm no longer surprised by numbers in the 30s and 40s. I've also had many games ended by a lack of technology or lack of new, useable ships.

I understand the rational behind the negative events - I just wish some of the games weren't set up so I've lost before I've even made my first jump.

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by adam.scura on Fri 7 Mar - 3:33

I've been thinking about this and I've come up with some solutions.

For the gas planets, the hull damage should be more predictable.  If the damage is going to be unexpectedly high (like more than 40% if the average is 20%) then it should leave you with 1 point so you have a chance to fix the damage.

For the random events, the game should consider the effect on you before it dishes out a random event.  If the random event will result in an unwinnable scenario, the game should prevent it from happening.  For example let's consider the event of your space folder exploding.  You have to be able to craft a new one with iron and silicon.  So the game should ask:

1. Does the player have 1 Fe & 1 Si?
2. If not, is there a rocky planet in this system that contains 1 Fe & 1 Si?  And does the player have enough Fuel to land, drill, and take off again in the worst case scenario?
3. If the player doesn't have enough fuel, is there a gas planet nearby that has enough fuel?  And does the player have enough fuel and hull integrity to orbit a gas planet and extract the required amount of fuel?
4. If not, can the player dismantle a non-critical component to get 1 Fe & 1 Si?
5. If none of these conditions are true, the event cannot happen.

This would greatly help balance the gameplay and make things fair for the player.  They would still have to think critically and solve problems, but they would never be stuck with an unearned failure.

Events like forgetting technology should probably be removed entirely because there is no reliable way to get that tech back.  If you loose a critical piece of technology you might as well reset the game.

I have not seen stars that are spaced too far apart for travel.  If that is happening then I suggest MI-CLOS refines their universe generater to make sure all stars are close enough to reach 3 neighboring stars with an unmodified space folder (you arrive from one star, and have 2 options to go to next).

If the problem is hitting a string of planets that don't have required resources, I suggest that they further refine the algorithm.  Let's say for example you are low on fuel and you've exhausted all fuel in the current star system.  You need to travel to the next star system to refuel.  You have at least 2 choices (according to the universe generator I suggested).  If your first choice does not have fuel, then the second system should.  Therefore: The sum of the resources of any two neighboring stars should be equal to the minimum resources required to travel between them, plus the resources required to travel to the next farthest neighbor.

That being said, my proposed algorithm is not foolproof.  If the player chooses the wrong neighbor twice in a row, they are really screwed.  I think MI-CLOS tried to solve this problem with their "Last Chance" feature, but it is not adequate to prevent an unearned failure.  Maybe the game should cause a "miracle" event when it detects the player is about to get screwed through no fault of their own.  For example: the player flies through a fuel cloud and picks up enough fuel to continue.  Maybe the player only gets a certain number of miracles.  This would could be set by a difficulty level like Ozupkoj suggested.  That would make it possible for the novice to make a few mistakes, but it would give hardcore players the bragging rights that they beat it on "No Miracles".

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by Awaras on Fri 7 Mar - 7:37

Guys, it's a roguelike game. Random events can and will bring you to unwinnable situations. You can only do your best to prevent them - shields help with gas giant damage, for example.

On the other hand, it might be a good idea to make the most basic techs (drill, probe, reactor, space folder) 'unforgettable' because if you lose one of those you are doomed and the odds of finding them again are very low.

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by MichaelP on Fri 7 Mar - 12:52

Interesting suggestions here.
Give us some time to discuss it internally.
Thanks.

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by GromOzekA on Fri 7 Mar - 23:55

Imho, random is good, it is core of the game. But it needs to be normalized and dispersion needs to be lowered. Dispersion of damage sux atm, you can take 40+ damage from planet and 10 damage from the star of that planet. Same for planet resources it's kinda sad that all i get from a gas giant was 10 H. This planet was only one that was not occupied. I spend all my fuel and all my omega, i had Tau and Gravi sails, and that device that allow you to see planets. A did about 10 jumps and all of the planets was occupied. All events and anomalies was about hull or oxygen. Its OK, just bad luck.

But random seems come in streaks. It's looks strange. In four games in a row my first tech was the same, event blew up device that i just builded (and again after couple of jumps), 4 ships of same desighn in one game. It's really need some normalization.

Also i find resistance scaling up to fast. Base 1 resist and Shield+Void gives 5 resistance and it is enought for star diving and stuff.


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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by R22 on Sun 9 Mar - 11:46

My last game lasted about 1-2 hours, changed 3 times of ship in critical conditions, acquired a lot's of tech, and before the judge event i was blocked i was not able to jump ahead, the planets were at a pixel of my folder distance.

Bored !

Is it normal ? is the upgraded folder a requirement ?
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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by R22 on Mon 10 Mar - 10:46

2 runs today and 2 times i'm stuck in a dead end forced to go a long way back, and lost.
i had upgraded engine, upgraded force shield, 6 omega. GRRRRR


Guys is it possible to get one ending without the stase tau ?
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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by GromOzekA on Mon 10 Mar - 13:07

I got green ending even after 7 jumps a way back.

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by R22 on Mon 10 Mar - 14:52

Lucky man, did at least 15 jumps back, judges got me, then i ran out of fuel, at least now i don't bother mine one by one,
i just dont care and mine 10 by 10, there is not point in trying to make a good run, just go on the left, lose ? go the right, let's the events decides if you go far or not.

This game.. hum it's like a gambling machine, as long as you do nothing silly, it's just chance, you can't really turn the table in your favor.
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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by R22 on Mon 10 Mar - 16:08

This game is making me RAGE,  third run of the day, i'm stuck again.

I've made a little file, for your interrest

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Kp1er61_yohTk1RgIEOyWQBbmC84u-NTzoDQp5c4Wg4/edit?usp=sharing

It's the only way for me to enjoy the game, making a chart :-/
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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by Kvothe on Tue 11 Mar - 15:31

R22 wrote:

This game.. hum it's like a gambling machine, as long as you do nothing silly, it's just chance, you can't really turn the table in your favor.

You should know that the House always wins.

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by Captainbooshi on Thu 13 Mar - 1:33

I don't really have a problem with the randomness, because that's the idea behind a rogue-like like this, but I would agree with a few of the ideas here. It really should not be possible to forget the basic four technologies: Space Folder, Interplanetary Reactor, Drill, and Hydrogen Probe. It's possible to survive losing these, I've done it, but it makes the game less fun, and pretty much makes it impossible to do the harder endings.

I would also note that you should be guaranteed a ship to change over to sometime in the first 5-10 systems next to your starting spot. I've gone more than 15-20 jumps in the starter ship, and it's just boring at that point. You've either died or hit that happy medium where you're just waiting to find a better ship so you can really start the game.

I would also note that it can be very frustrating how many planets the God Death people hold after their event, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing, really, just a job well done Smile

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by Captainbooshi on Fri 14 Mar - 0:54

Just thought I'd add a funny note here. I wrote that last post yesterday, then went home and played some more. In one game, an event forced me to forget the drill technology almost immediately after the start, and the God Death fleet event made me forget the Space Folder technology, but for the first time, I successfully made it back to Earth! I didn't even relearn the drill until I was almost to the very end, well after I had reached the red destination star and was going to the Judges/Architects system.

Just goes to show, it's never impossible to win, but had some random event destroyed my drill or space folder and forced me to lose after coming so far, I may very well have just quit playing altogether, so I think the point I made is still accurate.

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by Darekpage on Sun 4 May - 20:22

"On the other hand, it might be a good idea to make the most basic techs (drill, probe, reactor, space folder) 'unforgettable' because if you lose one of those you are doomed and the odds of finding them again are very low."

I 100% agree with this! it's one thing to forget wormhole tech but to forget a space folder or a interplanetary reactor and have it explode in your face would be a game enter for any player no matter what sort of ship layout they have

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by Xenomorph on Sun 11 May - 0:33

I also agree that it should be impossible to forget the starter tech. at the end of the day though it is a roguelike game. Random events can and will bring you to unwinnable situations and thats fine. But forgetting starter tech shouldn't be one of them when there are so many other ways to lose I think we can let this one go.

The only other thing that annoyed me was when I finally met the the enemy. So they take most my resources and mess up a few of the ships components. that's fine, but the amount of planets they inhabit is far too many. Because of this I was unable to get any resources after 3-4 jumps and ran out of fuel. Either make less enemies or give us a way to combat them for resource.
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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by MichaelP on Wed 18 Jun - 21:32

Last update (1.04.1) makes it impossible to forget vital techs.
Also, resources lost during enemy's encounter has been nerfed.

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Re: impossible moments -- difficulty options

Post by TyjanIg on Thu 26 Jun - 14:02

I know you guys said the latest update made it so that you can't forget important tech, but on my latest run the Judges made me forget the Telescope tech, making it so that after it was destroyed in another random event, I couldn't progress any further.

Also, I agree wholeheartedly about a lot of the features listed here especilly since 4 of my playthroughs ended with getting teleported to another system and not being able to progress because there was no way to upgrade my folder. I get that luck of the draw is what rougelikes are all about, but a player shouldn't be punished for something beyond his control, and should feel that if they made a mistake, like mining with low fuel or going through a black hole, that should be on them. Forcing someone to replay the game all over again because they're now stuck? That's one of the worst sins you could cause in a game (Clock Tower 2/Ghosthead on the Playstation does this all the time. There's a good reason its considered the worst in the series).

I have another idea that would might make the game fun as well. You could add an advantage/disadvantage system, where you can select something special to start out with,but you would also have to balance it out with a disadvantage as well. It would be great for multiple playthroughs where you want to try something else...out there!

Besides all this though, I am loving the game, and can't wait to see what future updates bring!

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